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"Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Revival"

Omar Hossino Staff Writer
Published 04-14-06
Graphic By: Jen Hight
Walking in to Dr. William Ochsenwald's Tuesday April 11th lecture "Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Revival" I was less than enthusiastic. A Muslim Arab interested in History, I expected the usual Orientalist mix of truth and fallacies with mistakes on essential Arab and Muslim concepts. I was soon to be proven totally and completely incorrect. Dr. William Ochsenwald gave a highly informative, unbiased and clear hour-long lecture detailing the history of Saudi Arabia and its effects on the overall Middle East.

Dr. William Ochsenwald is a Professor of History at Virginia Tech; he has visited and lived in many parts of the Middle East, including Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Palestine/Israel. He is the author of various works and served as the president of the Society for Gulf Arab States from 1996-1998.

Dr. Ochsenwald began his talk by speaking about the origins of the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia. He explained that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia began in a cooperation agreement with tribal leader Muhammad ibn Sau'd and Islamic puritan Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab. Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab believed that Muslims had corrupted themselves with innovations--many of which made them infidels--and engaged in a violent spread of his beliefs. Abdul Wahhab's ideology became known as Wahhabism, or Wahhabi Islam. Dr. Ochsenwald argued that Wahhab's radical desire to reshape Saudi society into his vision of a more pure Islam free of innovations left a lasting impression on the history of the Saudi Kingdom.

Dr. Ochsenwald then explained that, under the first Saudi Kingdom influenced by Wahhabi ideology, the ullema, or clerics, had become weapons of the regime and aided in this spread of Wahhabi ideology. He proceeded to explain that, in the past 10 years, a number of reforms slowly made their way into the Saudi Kingdom causing a more pragmatic and liberal approach to take root by the Saudi royal family. The reforms taken by the Saudi Kingdom include the creation of Majlis al-Shura, or the "council of discussion," an advising body to the Saudi King which has even recently included a Shi'a member. Dr. Ochsenwald argued that Wahhabis such as Osama bin Laden emphatically rejected such reformation, and this resulted in his radicalism and extremism. The speech was concluded by a discussion concerning slow liberal changes which have been in effect throughout the Saudi Kingdom in response to the horrible attacks of 9/11, such as the creation of elected Municipal Councils.

Many questions were taken from the floor for about 15 minutes. One student asked whether the average Saudi opinion agreed with the radical al-Qaeda or with the reforms of the Saudi royal family. Dr. Ochsenwald answered that there is no freedom of speech in Saudi Arabia, so it is hard to know exactly what Saudis think, yet a study by Zogby International found that there is growing opposition to al-Qaeda in the Saudi Kingdom, but not necessarily support of the Saudi royal family. Another student asked about the relationship between the growing civil war in Iraq and its effects on Saudi Arabia. Dr. Ochsenwald responded that most Saudis want the United States out of Iraq and that some Saudis even snuck across the borders of Syria en route to Iraq to fight against American soldiers.

A very important question was asked by one student, who asked why Osama bin Laden hates the United States. Dr. Ochsenwald responded that, in his opinion, the main impetus of such hate, which is clear throughout the writings of Osama bin Laden, is U.S. support of the Saudi Royal Family. Dr. Ochsenwald described this as the "main instigator" of Osama bin Laden's hate towards America and even argued that the Israeli-Palestinian issue came much later, only to draw greater sympathy from Muslims across the world.

Dr. Charles McClellan, Chairman of the Department of History, asked the final question of the night; it concerned whether or not current U.S. policy is working to stop al-Qaeda and terrorism across the world. Dr. Ochsenwald responded that U.S. policy is working, but it is not enough. He further described U.S. public diplomacy to the Middle East as extremely and totally ineffective. Dr. Ochsenwald explained that, "Democracy in the Middle East at gun-point does not work as a general rule"; furthermore, he criticized the U.S.'s use of what he called "brute force because we can."

I believe that Dr. Ochsenwald presented a fair, balanced look into Saudi history of the past 300 years. Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab has been the driving force behind Islamic extremism and radicalism for the past few centuries. Imam Abu Zahra wrote this in describing the earliest Wahhabi conquests in Tarikh al-Madhahib al-Islami:

"The Wahhabis did not restrain themselves to proselytism only, but resorted to warmongering against whoever disagreed with them on the grounds that they were fighting innovation (bid`a), and innovations are an evil that must be fought, and it is obligatory to command good and forbid evil?heir brutality did not stop there but they also came to whatever graves were visible and destroyed them also. And when the ruler of the Hijaz regions caved in to them they destroyed all the graves of the Companions and razed them to the ground."

I believe, though, that his characterization of Osama bin Laden simply being influenced by Wahhabi doctrines and the Saudi royal family is an overgeneralization. Dr. Ochsenwald does not mention the ideologies of later 20th century Islamic ideologists such as Sayyid Qutb, and Abu `Ala al-Maududi. In fact, Wahhabism is a label which includes an umbrella of sects and movements, many of which have been proven to sponsor and promote terrorism around the world. The doctrines of both Sayyid Qutb as well as Abu 'Ala al-Maududi, which call for violent and Marxist-like global Islamic revolution, are central and key in the understanding of the makeup of modern-day Islamic terrorism. Osama bin Laden's right-hand man, Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, is an Egyptian member of the Muslim Brotherhood and a strong proponent of the ideas of Sayyid Qutb.

A minor disagreement I had with Dr. Ochsenwald is that he called Saudi Arabia a Sunni Kingdom. Although Saudi Arabian Wahhabis consider themselves to be the true Sunnis, they do not fit the legal definition of Sunni Muslims as defined by classical and traditional Islam.

The al-Azhar Dictionary of Islamic Terms defines the term Sunni as, "The follower of Imam Abul Hasan al-Ash`ari, or Imam al-Maturidi's codifications of Islamic beliefs."

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, one of the leading authorities of classical Islam, also defined a Sunni Muslim as a follower of the two schools of Islamic theology: the Ash`aris and the Maturidis. The fact of the matter is that Wahhabism considers the Ash`ari and Maturidi schools of Islamic theology to be deviant, and thus cannot be called Sunni simply by the definition of the word. Wahhabis also believe in anthropomorphic and literalist beliefs concerning God's attributes, which are rejected by Sunnis.

I believe the reformation Dr. Ochsenwald described in his lecture is still not truly in place. An important example of the dissent of many within the Saudi Kingdom, as opposed to the ugly face of radical Wahhabism, is in the case of the great Sufi scholar of Saudi Arabia, Shaykh Seyed Mohammad Alawi Al-Maliki. Shaykh al-`Alawi al-Maliki was branded a infidel by some of the highest-ranking Saudi clerics, including the imam or prayer leader in the Holy Ka'ba of Mecca, Shaykh al-Sudais. Journalist Stephen Schwartz described him in an article for Frontpage.com a highly neo-conservative online news magazine in an article entitled "Getting to Know the Sufis":

"The dead man, 58-year-old Seyed Mohammad Alawi Al-Maliki, had been blacklisted from employment in religious education, banned from preaching in the Grand Mosque (a privilege once enjoyed by his father and grandfather), and even imprisoned by the Saudi regime and deprived of his passport. That so many Saudi subjects were willing to gather openly to mourn him--indeed, that his family succeeded in excluding Wahhabi clerics from the mosque during the memorial--says something important, not just about the state of dissent inside the Saudi kingdom, but also about pluralism in Islam.

Radical Wahhabis are not only a danger to the United States, but a danger to Muslims as well. Dr. Ochsenwald did not mention the extensive campaign funded by Saudi petrol-dollars to disseminate Wahhabi-literature to U.S. mosques and Islamic organizations. The Wahhabi culture of hate is being spread at a phenomenal pace which not only inspires violence and hate towards non-Muslims in many occasions, but also violence and hate towards non-Wahhabi Muslims as well. Holy relics such as the birthplace of the Prophet Muhammad and the blessed graveyard Jannat al-Baqi have been destroyed by radical Wahhabi Puritanism. Mount Uhud, one of the holiest sites of Islam, was almost destroyed recently as well. I hope that non-Muslims understand that not all Muslims agree with the radical and extremist Saudi-Wahhabi ideology of hate.

Numerous letters by various traditional Islamic scholars have condemned both the ideologies of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb. In a letter written by Shaykh Sayyid al-Rifa`i to the Saudi Kingdom entitled Advice to Our Brothers the Scholars of Najd it was written:

"The slaughters and terrible events presently taking place damage the reputation of Islam and play havoc with the Muslims. For example, what happened in Algeria and Egypt or in the Meccan Sanctuary is nothing but the fruit of your graduates and beliefs, and the reading of your publications, all of them built on apostatizing, calling monotheists idolaters, hurling accusations of innovations, and holding the worst opinions of the Muslims."

And,

"Therefore, fear God Most High and do not kill a life which God Most High made sacred, except in justice! And be warned of the causes for remorse and guilt the Day of Woe and Resurrection."

In conclusion I believe that Dr. Ochsenwald's lecture was informative, balanced and enlightening. He is correct in that the 17th-century pact between Muhammad ibn Sau'd and Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab has shaped not only Saudi history but the history of the Middle East and even the world for the past few centuries.


Omar is Whim's resident man.

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No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

OMG! I am sooo sick of this Islamic BS, it makes me sick. How many of them are here at Radford? 3? Yet they constantly beat their dead horse again, and again, and again. Omar is not the resident "man"-- he is a puppet.
No Subject
Posted by Reality

"I was less than enthusiastic. A Muslim Arab interested in History, I expected the usual Orientalist mix of truth and fallacies with mistakes on essential Arab and Muslim concepts."

Was this because you know all there is to know about Islam? Because some punk kid knows more than someone who I am sure spends a lot of time (probably a lot more time than you) researching the subject. Arrogance...

"says something important, not just about the state of dissent inside the Saudi kingdom, but also about pluralism in Islam."

People also mourn the deaths of suicide bombers and celebrate the bombing of buildings. What does that have to say about Islam?

"Although Saudi Arabian Wahhabis consider themselves to be the true Sunnis, they do not fit the legal definition of Sunni Muslims as defined by classical and traditional Islam."

Because a 1500 year old political dispute is reason to blow each other up. Nice touch.

To Some Anonymous Whim Reader
Posted by Unknown

OMG! I'm getting so sick of YOU, it makes me sick. How many Muslims are here @ Radford? Bunches, man, bunches and you can't get rid of them cuz they are here to stay!! Well at least Omar has the guts to write to an article in what he believes in and at least sharing his insights, unlike you, you are just acting like an asshole. Good work on the article Omar and may God bless you. Work on some more articles in the future, insha allah.
When?
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

It would be helpful to know when the events in your third paragraph took place. What time frame are we talking about: decades, centuries - what?
Some punk kid.
Posted by Rick Snee

Ray posts as Reality because he's afraid of Muslims.

I'm sorry I missed this event, Omar. It sounded very informative.
No Subject
Posted by Omar

The only reason I post Islam articles is simply to defend my religion from misrepresentations. I have written about 6 of them (including next week's). The only way to tell others I am against terrorism is to say I am against terrorism and speak it loudly. There are many other articles in Whim if you do not want to read mine.

As for Ray, yes I do not know everything about Islam - nor do I claim to. And the dispute was only 300 years old - not 1500 - I think your thinking of the Shi`a.


So true, Rick, so true.
Posted by GenN

Ray posts as Reality because he's afraid of Muslims. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!
No Subject
Posted by Ray

If I were Reality, and all of you knew that, what would be the point of continuing to post under that name? Why wouldn't just start posting under Ray? Your logic doesnt make sense.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Except that you constantly come on to claim your not. You and Reality even use the same phrasing! Look that the "some punk kid" reference here and in your article, Ray. Astonishing!
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"The only way to tell others I am against terrorism is to say I am against terrorism and speak it loudly."

That's not very effective. We'd find you far more credible if you were actually smacking down the asshats who are making your religion look so bad...but they are Muslims too, so apparently you can't.

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Bunches, man, bunches and you can't get rid of them cuz they are here to stay!!"

How many of them are planning on driving Jeeps through campus?

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Ray is reality and the point would be so he could try to hide it. no fucking shit. we all know so quit hiding, and even if you deny it that doesn't change our beliefs.
"Do something!"
Posted by Rick Snee

I love how everyone keeps saying Omar isn't doing enough. He's not pinning down terrorists at gunpoint, 24-style, so he's not doing enough? Honestly, what do you expect? He's speaking out against violence, as you all claim Muslims do not. When was the last time you physically took on the KKK for misrepresenting Christianity? Your expectations are ridiculous and rude.
cool stuff!
Posted by Mo

man, i missed that lecture. i had a class which i missed too; i was too tired to go anywhere. keep up the good work, Omar.
Dick, you're an idiot
Posted by Reality

"He's not pinning down terrorists at gunpoint, 24-style, so he's not doing enough?"

We (At least I) aren't telling him to go hunt them down, but instead of lecturing to us, his own people are the ones who need to be talked to. A major reason we don't like the religion is because the real world application is not a positive one. So instead of trying to convince us a lot of violent people who happen to be Islamic are good people, why doesn't he spend his time trying to convince those bad people not to tarnish his religion?

No Subject
Posted by Brian S.

Omar is not lecturing, he is informing. There is a difference.
Ray, you're a coward.
Posted by Rick Snee

So by speaking out against the violence, he's not doing that? You're only looking for an excuse to bash Islam behind a not so fake name. Get a life.

For those confused, Ray called me Dick because I was named for my most prominent physical feature.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"So instead of trying to convince us a lot of violent people who happen to be Islamic are good people, why doesn't he spend his time trying to convince those bad people not to tarnish his religion?" Damn, reality, I couldn't have said it better myself.
No Subject
Posted by Not Ray

"For those confused, Ray called me Dick because I was named for my most prominent physical feature."

People who boast of their penis size are just hiding their insecurity over the same. And not very well, I might add.

^^^
Posted by Ray

hahaha
Hey, I didn't bring it up (again).
Posted by Rick Snee

Ray's obsessed with it. It's both flattering and scary.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Ray's obsessed with it. It's both flattering and scary."

I'm tempted to buy Ray a T-shirt for him to wear when he stands next to you. What do you think of this one? Or how about this one? BWAHAHAAAAA!!!! :)

Maybe presents will calm him down.
Posted by Rick Snee

Gotta love T-Shirt Hell! I almost got the hippy one myself.
Ray-Reality displays his retardation.
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Convince his people? What do you think the majority of Muslims are just crazies who run around killing each other? And that Omar just magically has to go find them and tell them not to? Ray has proven his cowardice and stupidity here. What is your proof that the majority of Muslims are violent and terrorist peoples? You think that Omar is one of the "good ones" and he's basically understanding his religion wrong while the rest of Muslims are the "bad ones." What makes you think that there are so many Muslims that preach violence and killing? Fox News? You know Dr. Reginald Shareef, Dr. Halide Saleem, and other professors here are Muslims and if you think they are violent then your a nut-job. What I am seeing from Ray is extreme desperation (as well as cowardice - "Reality") because he has absolutely nothing to say and so he just wants Omar to quit writing these articles immediately. He has nothing to say, so he starts saying, "why doesn't Omar go talk to his people and tell us not to kill people." As if Omar has a 24/7 connection to terrorists and he can just call them up saying "Yo guys, don't kill tonight." This is one of the most steriotypical and ignorant things I have ever heard on Whim.
No Subject
Posted by Reality

Look at the first Islam articles from last semester. Look at how many people opposed it. Look at these and look at how many people are now realizing what I have been saying for 6 months. I have nothing left to say? Hardly. I love these articles because it draws more and more attention to how inherently violent Islam is. I just kind of think that Omar isn't portaying anything new and it is getting old arguing the same things. Maybe the next article should be why 90% of the wars currently being fought involves Muslims. Obviously every Muslim isnt crazy (and yes, I had Dr. Shareef, he was a great teacher) just like not every Christian is a peaceful one. But the fact of the matter is that whether or not your religion started out peaceful, was meant to be peaceful, or whatever... current world events prove otherwise and this fact is ignored because there is no refuting it.

As for the coward part... I just turned 21 so my handgun should be arriving shortly and then I wont have to worry about posting anonymously.

You guys should really start thinking about your responses instead of throwing some visceral bullshit up here. Half of the crap doesnt even begin to make sense.

Is that a threat? Sounds like terrorism.
Posted by Rick Snee

"46. Weapons
"The unauthorized use, possession or storage of firearms, ammunition, weapons or realistic weapons on Radford University Property or disruptive use of these items off-campus. . . ."
--RU Standards of Student Conduct

And didn't you write an article saying guys who bring guns to fights are cowards?
No Subject
Posted by Reality

First, it's not a threat. It's saying that I will be evening the field if they ever figure out who I am and where I live. Second, I live off campus. Third, that was aimed at people who bring guns to fights becaues homeboy down the street just skuffed his new kicks. It was more directed at the shootings we had two years ago over some gay shit like the kid looked at some guys girl the wrong way. If someone is coming to kill me, you better believe they are going to have to go through a hail of gunfire before I go willingly. Hopefully it will never come to that, but wouldn't it be ironic?
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Look at how many people opposed it." Ok...Ray Gunter/Reality/Gun-Owner/WAA-I-Cannot-Drink, Old Fart, and about two others who then posted about 20 times making it look like a majority.
Terrorism, heh...
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Ray Gunter is striking terror into the hearts of Muslims by saying "I have a gun." Hmm.. Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
What the hell is wrong with you people
Posted by Ray's Mom

Whether or not anyone owns a gun, has an opinion, likes or dislikes you, you all do not have the right to publish personal information about anyone. Chicken fingers you are nothing but chicken shit. My second amendment gives me and every other adult who had not been convicted of a felony the right to defend ourselves. Bury your heads in the sand if you like. Iran will have the bomb in about 2 weeks and today their president reaffirmed his committment to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Peaceful? Bull F-ing shit. Grow up and stop thinking life is peachy and fair. You're not in kindergarten anymore.
Ray's mom needs douche.
Posted by Douche Supplier

Which side of your stank puss (I don't know if it was overused or whatever) did your son come out of? Seriously woman you need to calm down. It's just a debate here you don't need to start going wild. Please use douche next time.
Iran...?
Posted by Zirus

Since when does Iran represent 1 billion Muslims? You know Hitler the Christian killed 6 million Jews... peaceful bull f-ing shit.
Ray is Reality - 5 proofs.
Posted by Sherlock Homes

Ray reveals himself as reality again. First proof: his signing his message as "Ray" under Reality. Second proof: he posts about animal sex under Ray then about a month later posts about it under Reality. Third proof: they have the exact same sentence structure. Fourth proof: answering Rick Snee who asked "didn't you write an aritlce" with "Third, that was aimed at..." so meaning he DID write an article. Fifth proof: saying he is turning 21 soon so he will buy a gun. Ray is turning 21 very soon, and he had posted that he was buying a gun under the name "Ray" in previous threads. It is pretty much certain that Ray is Reality for anyone who has a brain. So let's just have Ray admit it right now. Reality? Maybe the name should be Bull-Shit.
Mrs. Gunter
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Mrs. Gunter, yeah thats why your son has MySpace and LiveJournal up on the internet publically for thousands to read such as: TELL ME ABOUT YOURSELF - The Survey Name: Raymond Allen Gunter, Jr. Birthday: April 15, 1985 Birthplace: Norfolk, VA Current Location: Radford/Virginia Beach Eye Color: Hazel Hair Color: Black (Dyed) Height: 5'8" Right Handed or Left Handed: Left Your Heritage: American The Shoes You Wore Today: Vans
No Subject
Posted by Ray's mom

What is posted on sites like My space, etc. is there by the individual's choice. It is not your decision to post his address here. That's my point. As for Zirius, Christians the world over condemmed Hitler, not condoned his actions. And Douche supplier... kiss your mother with that mouth? Don't mess with me or mine. Finally, I don't see Sherlock Holmes posting under his own name. Kind of a double standard, don't you think? Isn't that what your panties are all in a bunch about? Ray posting (or not posting)under an alias is no worse than you doing it.
No Subject
Posted by Zirus

"As for Zirius, Christians the world over condemmed Hitler, not condoned his actions." Read "Hitler's Pope" you can get it on Amazon.com. Your right though in general, Christians did condemn Hitler, and Muslims (I know many) all over the world condemn terror, so what are you babbling about.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

I believe the point is that Ray consistently denies that he is Reality, though OVERWHELMINGLY the similarities are proving that he IS Reality. He uses Reality to flame people, to troll, to incite people. That is what people get angry about. He needs to just own up to it.
No Subject
Posted by Ray's Mom

You're just as guilty. You make claims, bash Ray, and do it all annonymously. How convenient for you. If you look at the posts on any article on Whim, most are done annonymously or with some nom de plume. What's the difference? It's either OK for everyone or it's not OK for anyone. Which is it? Subjective standards maybe?
Oh boy.
Posted by Rick Snee

I do not agree at all with posting Ray's information on here (no matter how accessible he's made it already). The issue most have is that Ray is using his "Reality" identity not to protect himself for safety's sake, but to keep his "job" at Whim because he was warned about his bigotry before.

If his views are so innocent and true, then why need the psuedonym? Also, what was Ray's point of bringing up his beloved Desert Eagle again if it weren't some pathetic intimidation attempt?

And if you come after me, Mrs. Ray's Mom, I will SO tell my dad on you.
No Subject
Posted by Ray's Mom

Hey Rick, I'm not sure you're dad could beat me. I'm pretty tough :)
yes indeed...
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Gotta love T-Shirt Hell! I almost got the hippy one myself."

They do have some great shirts, like THIS one.

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Ray is turning 21 very soon, and he had posted that he was buying a gun under the name "Ray" in previous threads."

Not that it matters, but Ray doesn't have to be 21 to buy a gun. He only has to be 21 to buy a little gun.

Not Ray
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

Not to pick nits here, but where has Ray suggested that he would commit an UNLAWFUL use of force against anybody? Sometimes, shooting people is illegal. Other times, it's completely legal. It's a matter of the circumstances. Just ask any attorney or police officer. We live in Virginia, NOT DC.

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Your right though in general, Christians did condemn Hitler, and Muslims (I know many) all over the world condemn terror"

Speaking of Hitler and Muslims, ever hear of SS Handschar?

OMFG!!!
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Ray was born in NORFOLK!!! RUN AWAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
ummmmm...
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"You know Hitler the Christian killed 6 million Jews... peaceful bull f-ing shit."

Hitler was a Christian? That's very interesting, given his penchant for flagrant pagan idolatry...you know, that whole "Aryan myth", "ancient rune", "Norse Gods" thing. Is suppose some would call Stalin a Christian too...

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"The unauthorized use, possession or storage of firearms, ammunition, weapons or realistic weapons on Radford University Property or disruptive use of these items off-campus. . . ."

I thought Ray lives Off-Campus. Shooting somebody that needs shot (and can legally be shot in self-defense in accordance with §18.2-32 of the Code of Virginia, annotated) would not constitute "disruptive use", would it?

I can think of very few ways for RU to get sued quicker than by disciplining an off-campus student for legally shooting an attacker off-campus. Of course, according to published mainstream newspaper reports, RU IS being sued on other issues (at least one involving a facultymember) that only a blind person couldn't have seen coming.

Sure, but he still has classes, doesn't he?
Posted by Rick Snee

A Desert Eagle at home is pretty useless when he still might run into the big scary Muslims on campus.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Rick... See Ptrick's article. As someone has already pointed out you are an assus holus.
No Subject
Posted by Ray

"A Desert Eagle at home is pretty useless when he still might run into the big scary Muslims on campus."

All the more reason why the Second shouldn't be infringed upon. And it's a Springfield XD 45, btw, although a DE would be nice. The Israeli's have a lot of things right, and that gun is one of them.

hahahaha
Posted by Rick Snee

"assus holus?" And then some.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

So are you threatening and warning the "big bad" Muslims on campus (who probably wouldn't hurt a fly) to "not get near you."? Or is it just me... hmm..
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

I can't recall Ray threatening anyone. It seems that a lot of people are putting words in his mouth. Whther or not you all agree with what he has to say, your behavior is wrong. You are the ones trying to start something. Not Ray.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

For a religion that is supposed to be "inherently violent" as so many people like to say in the comment boards here, I haven't met one Muslim personally that has even gotten angry. Here at Radford, I know at least three Muslims. Now that isn't a huge sample audience, but the three that I know personally are actually some of the smartest, most open-minded individuals I know. I've never heard them raise their voice and I've never heard them speak a word of hatred, even living in a society that says the kind of crap the people on this message board say. Two of Muslims I know either come from the Middle East, or spend significant time there during breaks.

So how many Mulsims do you all know personally? Can you honestly say that what the terrorists do is representative to all Muslims? No matter what is being done internally to combat Muslims, no one on this board will be satisfied. Ray will continue to come up with new criteria to explain how they aren't doing enough. People will still troll the message boards, saying "your prophet is a pervert" trying to get a rise out of people. They'll talk about the violence in the Qu'ran without thinking of the violence in the Bible. They'll take the small minority of Muslims who pervert Islam to their own militant agendas and take it on a whole as representing all of that faith.

Yet they don't even know any Muslims.

President Bush and Prime Minister Blair both have said that they make policies based upon their faith in God and that God will "judge them on Iraq." So it is ok for a Christian to operate under his faith, invade a country, kill innocent people (as well as legitimate combatants) and yet it is just happenstance and none of it means anything? Jerry Falwell can talk about how God tells him to make the whole world Christian, and Christians jump to that, not seeing anything wrong with it, because Christ is the One True Savior, but suddenly it is insidious when the Muslims have the exact same agenda?

Get it straight. Both religions have killed countless people in the names of their faith. Both have been hijacked and perverted by people before. Not all terrorists are Muslims, nor are all Muslims terrorists. Get to know some Muslims before you judge them all on the ones you've never interacted with. Try asking them about their religion instead of you telling them about their faith.

War in the East
Posted by Sal

The "Cradle of Civilization” pretty much is the Middle East. Here is a (as in not the only) basic recursive pattern of history 1) War 2) Peace 3) Advancement then 1-2-3-1-2….. My point is the people who have had their identity woven into the history of the Middle East and stay there are and will have difficulty pacifying the region, in ways that break this engrained pattern. Partially, because several peoples have roots from the Middle East, and partially because this pattern is learned during life and throughout history. Difficult does not mean Impossible and this pattern is not unique to the Middle East.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Not sure if I expressed this well enough,
We all devolve to acts of physical strength or power to solve problems during our lives. This includes yelling during an argument, beating up some freako who attached your loved one, and war. It is usually done when a person or group feels like there is no other way. It happens sooner with those who have a history of success through physical power or a history of failure through other means.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"I haven't met one Muslim personally that has even gotten angry." Good thing you're not a student at UNC, yes? Just because the three you know have never gotten angry in your presence doesn't mean that they've never gotten angry, or even that the three you know are a representative sample.
No Subject
Posted by V

you know im sure Jesus would love the fact that all of you are fighting and insulting each other. it wasnt like he was a peace loving man. You know while we are at it lets have WW3 fuck lets kill everybody Jews, Blacks, Christians, White people, Muslims, Asians, etc. Bring on the hate and killing right people you sound like a bunch of third graders
No Subject
Posted by Ray

Why not kill them? First, because Christians are killing people today because of their different beliefs (for the most part, I know there are fringe groups out there, but I'm not talking about them, I'm talking the core of Christians). Second, for the most part most of those groups aren't attacking us, calling for the deaths of infidels, etc. One group has a chip on their shoulder, but that is something entirely different; watch the Boondocks for that one.
To Ray
Posted by Unknown

Ray, suck my dick!
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Umm...
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Did you mean there aren't Christians today....
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Ah yes, the three I do know are NOT a representative sample, as I believe I said, but they are my personal experience. However, how many do you know PERSONALLY to acheive your representative sample of the violent ones?
No Subject
Posted by Ray

"Ray, suck my dick!"

Funny, your dad said the same thing to me the other night. I declined him and I'm going to decline you because I'm not gay. I flattered you want me to touch my mouth to your flacid and unused penis (which I am also sure is small), but sadly, unlike you, I'm not a fag.

And yes, I meant Christian arent.... Sorry

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"However, how many do you know PERSONALLY to acheive your representative sample of the violent ones?"

Well, there were the four that drove that plane into the building next to my house...but I can't say that I knew them PERSONALLY...tho the smell of burning jetfuel and human bodies did make quite the impression on me...

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"Well, there were the four that drove that plane into the building next to my house...but I can't say that I knew them PERSONALLY...tho the smell of burning jetfuel and human bodies did make quite the impression on me..."

How nice. So four people are the representative sample for you. That's fantastic. That clearly proves that Islam is inherently violent and that all those Muslims who aren't violent are merely exceptions to the rule.

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Ummm... Watch tv much? I can show you literally thousands who want to kill you simply because you're an American. I might even go so far as to say I could show you hundreds of thousands. No, I haven't met them personally, but I know of them and that is quite enough.
I have posted a style error!
Posted by Ray

This is an automated message. This message will be posted every time someone posts a style error.

Please do not post style errors.
^^^Bullshit
Posted by Ray

"So four people are the representative sample for you."

Wow, amazing the three people you know seem to be a perfect sample for your opinion, but when someone opposes it (with one more person I might add) you no longer consider that argument valid. Yea... but... I didnt mean... Whatever. How about all those people who burned embassies? How about the people who march in the street burning flags? Need a bigger sample? How many people from all over the world have gone to Iraq and declared a fatwa against the "Christians"? How many more examples would you like?

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. Source

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (source)


No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

That is a pretty big list only going back 6 months. Is this enough of a sample?
No Subject
Posted by SAWR2

You post pictures of terror attacks like we can generalize that to all Muslims. I could post pictures of the holocaust as well. And don't start with that "they are condemned by our society" crap because they condemn it as well. Just because you are the lone-voice of calling an entire religion to be terrorist does not mean anyone is going to stop being critical of what they hear from you. In the entire history of Islam and Christianity - who killed more people? Ponder that... inquisition, crusades, wars in Europe, popes not speaking out against the Holocaust, etc. Two hundred years ago if you would have asked the question "which religion is more violent" you would have been stupid to say Islam, just because more terrorists are Muslims in present does not mean that Islam is a terrorist religion it just means that in this current moment in history there is an increase in terrorism by Muslims. Have you ever thought into looking into the causes? Colonialism, imperialism, creating in-fighting within the Arabs, etc. have all had their own part in pissing off the Arabs to the degree of fighting us and ignoring their own teachings. Not every terrorist is a Muslim and not every Muslim is a terrorist. It's the same for Christianity, and God knows I am not attacking Christianity, but I am saying that one cannot attack any religion for the actions of a minority of its followers. What makes you think the people who are in those pictures are Muslim? They blew some people up and wear turbans so they are Muslim? Many Muslims will tell you a terrorist is not a Muslim, so in fact perhaps they are not even Muslim.
American Imperialism
Posted by The Perspective of the Left

American Imperialism kills more people everyday than Islamic terrorists could even dream of. The majority of the major conflicts in the world today involve Americans. Americans invaded Panama, Granada, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. They ordered changes of government in Haiti, Venezuela, Chile, etc. Have you ever heard of the "SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS" if not then I will tell you about it, it is a terrorist training camp in Fort Benning Georgia which trains Latin American terrorists to overthrow their leaders and make pro-American regimes. American Government killed thousands of Iraqis through 2 wars and 10 years of sanctions. American Government supported Osama bin Laden for 8 years in fighting the Russians. American Government gave Weapons of Mass Destruction to Saddam Hussein to fight the Iranians then giving arms to Iran to fight the Iraqis. American Government bombed a TV Station in Serbia killing hundreds of innocent people. American Government is the bully of the world that only gets its way or the highway. If you want references please read www.counterpunch.org as well as the works of Ramsey Clark, William Blum, and other Leftists. That being said everyone kills people and Muslims certainly are criticized by the Left when they do actions against morality and ethics. To say "the Left hates religion except Islam" is absurd and completely incorrect. Thanks, the LEFT!
No Subject
Posted by Ray

You post pictures of terror attacks like we can generalize that to all Muslims. I could post pictures of the holocaust as well

What pictures?

Ponder that... inquisition, crusades, wars in Europe, popes not speaking out against the Holocaust, etcBesides the holocaust, do you have any current events, or do you want to keep harping on the medival era? And didn't I refute the Inquisition (twice) already?

American Imperialism kills more people everyday than Islamic terrorists could even dream of. The majority of the major conflicts in the world today involve Americans.

Should I even waste my breath asking for your references to these claims? I bet you took an intro to philosophy class. Worse yet, I bet you may even be a philosophy (aka, we hate America) teacher. The SOA? Boo fucking hoo. We do not train terrorist. We train their military how to use legal tactics to surpress coups. How does that sponsor terrorists? Because Martin Sheen says so? ha. People like you are the reason why the majority of Americans hate the Left and why I'll be surprised if the Dems ever win the presidency again.

Finally, to close on To say "the Left hates religion except Islam" is absurd and completely incorrect.: you are right. They dont hate all relgions, just Christianity and Judaism.

Latin Proverb
Posted by Brian S.

Here is an interesting Latin proverb that I thought described the action that is on this board: "The man who inspects the saddle blanket instead of the horse is stupid; most stupid is the man who judges another man by his clothes or his circumstances."
No Subject
Posted by Josho

Ray, if you're going to use sources, use sources that at least make an attempt to be unbiased and reliable. Your source about the Spanish Inquisition comes from a blatantly Catholic source, which would obviously provide statistics skewed to place the Catholic church in a good light. As for your other source, you show us a list of the numbers of lynchings per year, but nothing that relates those numbers to the amount of people killed by Muslims. As far as the source you linked to is concerned, it doesn't even mention the KKK -- it just involves any and all lynchings in those years. I'm not sure what kind of link you're trying to forge there. A lot of what we perceive is what the media decides to show us, if you haven't noticed. It doesn't matter if the amount of rapes in America have gone up or down, if the media shows more rape on the evening news, we'll think rape occurence is on the rise, and if they don't show it at all, we'll think it's frequency is falling. They possess extraordinary power over people, liberal and conservative.
To Josho
Posted by Brian S.

That's the same thing that I tell these people out of here who are always so quick to throw out facts and statistics and stuff. Use sources that are reliable and I say this in some of my articles in the past as well. Before my articles even get up here I make sure that the facts are right and the sources are reliable. If the sources are not reliable I don't bother to read it and defintely not include it in my article.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"American Imperialism kills more people everyday than Islamic terrorists could even dream of. The majority of the major conflicts in the world today involve Americans. Americans invaded Panama, Granada, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc...>major rant snip<...If you want references please read www.counterpunch.org as well as the works of Ramsey Clark, William Blum, and other Leftists. That being said everyone kills people and Muslims certainly are criticized by the Left when they do actions against morality and ethics. To say "the Left hates religion except Islam" is absurd and completely incorrect. Thanks, the LEFT!

And you wonder why you have trouble getting Leftists elected to any office higher than Podunk Dog Catcher? Your post is EXACTLY the kind of dredlocked wearing lice-ridden unbathed patchouli-scented tweaked-out meth-addict-with-rotten-teeth rant that makes anybody not certifiably insane run away from anybody even REMOTELY connected with your side. Keep up the Good Work! :)

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"The man who inspects the saddle blanket instead of the horse is stupid; most stupid is the man who judges another man by his clothes or his circumstances."

There's another one that goes: The man who doesn't look a gift-horse in the mouth will end up with a stable full of old, broken-down hard-mouthed horses.

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

"How nice. So four people are the representative sample for you. That's fantastic."

First of all, mea culpa, it was 5 muslims, not 4. Given the other poster that gave his "three token peaceful Muslim" statement, my statement regarding 5 muslims was almost double a larger sample. Plus, there's the whole issue of "three people who don't hurt people" versus "five people who killed a bunch of people". So that's eight muslims in our combined samples, and 184 dead innocents. That works out to 23 dead innocents for each muslim in our combined samples.

/glad I took that Stats class. ;)

No Subject
Posted by Ray

I'll show you mine if you show me yours first.

In the entire history of Islam and Christianity - who killed more people?
So where is your unbiased source saying Christians killed more people than Muslims? Now remember, and this is the crux of the argument, so pay attention and I'll go slow: It has to be in the name of the religion and not just some fringe group condemned by the heads of said religion. Yes, I know there are Christian hate groups, but the Pope, President, and the vast majority of the preachers/pastors dont come out and support them. Hell, they go so far as to condemn them. With the other religion however, I can think of quite a few heads of Islamic states that are in full support of a Holy War against Jews and Christians, not even mentioning how many do nothing. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in time of war maintained their nuetrality."

No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

If you are discrediting 3 as a sample, 5 doesn't help out either.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

So where is your unbiased source saying Christians killed more people than Muslims? So wehere is your unbiased source saying Muslims killed more people than Chrisitans? And your talking about judging a whole people based on a few bad people, wow very logical.
No Subject
Posted by Some Anonymous Whim Reader

Was there a need to discredit the sample of three?

Dear Muslims:

I'm wearing a shirt with a picture of Muhammed on the back.

Just kidding. Please don't kill me.

Thanks in advance.

Inside Whim
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